Therapy

Dana
May 25, 2007, 15:12

Only two choices here for me:

Either I need more words, or I am not worthy. I am willing to believe I am not worthy--but it would have been more fun to have had more words.

Bill
May 25, 2007, 19:02

Wow. Here we go again. You’re messing with our brains man. Therapy hmm...

Marc Holt
May 25, 2007, 21:41

Looks like he is redefining the meaning of a vignette.

Cent
May 26, 2007, 00:10

It seems to me we are getting the story of his return to farangland in pieces. Icarus' mixture of prose and the poetic is what throws some I believe. But here he is telling us he is taking therapy. Hence the title. It's his second session. He has a hard time finding the office as he has only been once before and not familiar with the 'small street' and looking about for the house number/office number. But this time he remembers to feed the meter.
He feels he is in exile from Thailand, the heat, and the native people. The therapist is female and has an opaque mosaic on her door, possibly. He is being assessed by the therapist and feels relief and also at the same time a bit reticent to go through this. The therapist's office is somewhat small and cramped. The client's chair is more comfortable than her own which is stood near a battered desk. Tissues are available because therapy can sometimes get a little emotional. All therapist's offices have tissues.
She takes his address and tells him she will bill him monthly. She seems to be a cultured woman but he feels it might be a sham act and she may have actually had little worldly experience.
The last line seems very poetic and personal. There is great loss. The ice possibly symbolizes his cold feelings, his loss, or other things that may be too personal to decipher, yet.
But I see these as a series explaining his return to the west and what it does to him, how he feels about it, what he misses about Thailand, etc. He shows this as a series by numbering the submissions and subtitling them 'Going Home'. 1, 2 and 3 so far. The exception being 'The VIP', which takes place in Thailand. Except for the last line I can see what he is saying, explaining, and what he is feeling. Vignettes for sure, and damned good ones with the blend of poetry and sparse prose. Not for everyone, but I am enjoying these and hope Icarus continues. Each one leaves me wanting to read more to see where it is all going.

Just my take on this one and the rest of them so far.

Dana
May 26, 2007, 00:41

Yes, Cent; I agree with your synopsis and I am agreeable to the retelling in prose although it makes me a little uncomfortable. My personal prejudice is that good writing should not have to be reconfigured in any way ever.

I reached all the same conclusions you did but not on the first reading. But where do we draw the line between ourselves not being smart enough for something (unworthy) and the text (story) not being expositional enough? Two rereadings? Five rereadings? Seven . . . many so called 'readers' on the net have no problem publically proclaiming that they rarely finish something.

So if one is not so enamoured with their 'art' that they would actually like people to eat the whole text meal then some attention has to be made to the audience. I regularly dumb down what I write because if the reader can not get through to the end then it is hard to imagine everyone's time being well spent. I find this offensive and depressing but I also find it practical. To wit: Ezra Pound may have been the greatest poet in the 20th century but no one can read him or understand him. Sorry folks; that is the definition of a conundrum.

I give this story a 100% but I am a little edgy about it. Please Mr. Icarus, a trifle more words next time.

chuckwoww
May 26, 2007, 03:40

You're really pushing it now Icarus. You want us to write the thing for you?

Cent
May 26, 2007, 12:45

Dana: "Yes, Cent; I agree with your synopsis and I am agreeable to the retelling in prose although it makes me a little uncomfortable."

Well, I wasn't intending to 'retell' it, but just to show what I was getting from the information provided in Icarus's vignette. And, was wondering what others found in it for themselves. As we are a writing site for writers I see no reason we cannot occasionally actually talk about the craft of writing and some of the stories provided here for us all to read and digest.

"My personal prejudice is that good writing should not have to be reconfigured in any way ever."

I think when people are interested in a piece of work, or are troubled by it, or find it controversial, or just hard to decipher they will try to analyze it and pick it apart to see what makes it tick, or not tick for them. A natural desire of thinking beings, no?

"I reached all the same conclusions you did but not on the first reading."

Oh, believe me. I read it more than once! :-)

"But where do we draw the line between ourselves not being smart enough for something (unworthy)"

I don't think any of us here are not smart enough to understand. I do think many may be uninterested enough to not try. These are not easy reads, and many want an easy enjoyable story to read. And that is quite understandable. But some do enjoy this. I think the writers here, some, find these vignettes by Icarus a bit of fun trying to figure out exactly what he is telling us.

"and the text (story) not being expositional enough? Two rereadings? Five rereadings? Seven . . . many so called 'readers' on the net have no problem publically proclaiming that they rarely finish something."

Yep. Most will not take the time. But they are being read and some here have said they enjoy them. So they are here for those that do. And yes, internet readers are not known for their patience. :-) They want it swift and easily digestable. Fast foods.

"So if one is not so enamoured with their 'art' that they would actually like people to eat the whole text meal then some attention has to be made to the audience."

Many times I find it is best to just write what you like as an author, as a writer, and **** the audience. If your writing has merit there will be those that see it and like to read it. There is a vast array of diverse subject matter and style people like to read. One size does not fit all. Just tell your story and some will like to read it. The more that do the better, but it really doesn't matter does it unless you are a hack writer looking to sell, or working for others. But generally I think many writers just tell the damn story in their own unique, at times, style and voice. How can a writer hold it against a reader that doesn't find his wrtings/story enjoyable or interesting? People are individuals with individual tastes. It's rare you'd find any author that everyone likes to read. Hell, some people refuse to read ANY fiction! Some love only fiction and refuse to read anything else.

"I regularly dumb down what I write because if the reader can not get through to the end then it is hard to imagine everyone's time being well spent."

I don't know. I don't do that, but can see how it might help if you know your audience. I do, however, take into consideration where the writing will be displayed. I'll also edit for an audience that might be offended by certain words and passages. I don't write for the audience (I write for myself in truth-tell the story), but will edit to tailor toward a certain audience depending on what I percieve their sensibilities to be.

"I find this offensive and depressing but I also find it practical."

I think it pays to consider the forum you are thinking to display a certain work. Case in point is TS.com. Here the audience is looking for something about Thailand to read. But I feel the audience here is looking for not just Thailand topical reading matter, but something that is also more interesting than the usual 'trip report' style many Thailand-centric forums have available. We are about the stories, hence 'ThailandStories', not Trip Reports, or Reader's Submissions, or the usual 'She Done Me Wrong' stuff that bores most of us that are not 'newbies' to Thailand to tears.

"To wit: Ezra Pound may have been the greatest poet in the 20th century but no one can read him or understand him. Sorry folks; that is the definition of a conundrum."

Never did like Pound. But, I always loved Poe, who many do not like due to his use of the older archaic form of the English language.

"I give this story a 100% but I am a little edgy about it."

Same here. 100. And not so edgy myself, but interested in what he next throws at us. :-)

"Please Mr. Icarus, a trifle more words next time."

555555555! :-)

Cent
May 26, 2007, 12:46

By the way, did anyone notice the summary pic was of Tony Soprano at his therapist's? :-)

chuckwoww
May 26, 2007, 14:10

It's minimalism. Reminds me of Raymond Carver. Taken to it's logical extreme you end up back where you started...with a blank page. I hope Icarus keeps going because I want to see how he deals with that.

Dana
May 26, 2007, 14:41

Mr. Woww is correct but logical extremes do not always please. My experience on the net with Thai-farang content and sites for 'entertainment' is that the average reader is not positively inclined to explore different formats, or different approaches or ways of telling a story or painting a picture. Anything other than the standard four part format of storytelling drumed into us since birth by TV screenwriters has an uphill climb for respect. I have beat myself silly introducing other formats and storytelling ideas and methods and had a good time doing so but it has been a bumpy road. To the careful or alert reader my body of work is notable for diversity and originality but that is not always the same as getting a smile. A bumpy road folks. I am open minded regarding any kind of expositional text exercise including minimalism that spirals down (up?) to haikus but the only caveat I would offer is that 'creative' writing needs very careful crafting to succeed. Diamond cutters work in a world of no second chances--an excellent way for writers to think in my opinion.

chuckwoww
May 26, 2007, 16:17

Perhaps the clue to Icarus is in the title...Therapy. The way I read it his central character is seeing a psychiatrist. I sense a reluctance to communicate. The words are drawn out slowly and carefully chosen. The reader of course would like to know what happened to cause this state of affairs. Some traumatic event perhaps? The pleasure is in wondering how long Icarus will keep us in suspense. Hopefully all this discussion won't drive him further into his shell.

Marc Holt
May 26, 2007, 21:49

"I regularly dumb down what I write because if the reader can not get through to the end then it is hard to imagine everyone's time being well spent."
I hope you just chose the wrong words here, Dana: 'Dumb down'?

I don't think so. Your writing is sometimes so esoteric it takes a while to digest and understand....and that is not always possible.

Me? I write what I write without thinking about how easy it will be for the reader to understand. Heck! Sometimes I write without thinking (about the plot), and that produces some surprising results.

Hemmingway did the same. He used simple language that flowed off the page. I love his writing because it feels so natural.

Generally, I find that once the words start to flow the story telling takes on a life of its own. I sense that Icarus hoards his words because that is the way he thinks. I wonder what it is like conversing with him? Is he the guy who originated the word 'terse'?

One thing is for sure, he is stirring up discussion as no other writer has on this site. Very interesting.

Bill
May 27, 2007, 05:03

Sorry I just can’t bring myself to get too enthusiastic here and just going on the comments it’s created believe me I’ve tried. God I’ve tried. But by no elastic flexing of the imagination do I get it. I guess it’s all just a little too demanding for me. I struggle with the skill required to focus on the need to keep to the essence of what is being said. The level of attention is clearly above my capabilities here and had there been any more words I really don’t think I’d have made it to the end. (Attention span is something I hasten to add of which I am deeply lacking in). I need less cryptic and more detail, more descriptive passages so it becomes more exact and alive to savour. But that’s just me.

Nonetheless I’ve enjoyed reading all the comments and appreciate in doing so that there’s something more going on here then first meets the eye. So thanks for that. Learning to express oneself, understanding the power of effective use of language and seeing how crafted writing can move is most definitely a major asset to this site. Thus I do agree with Cent in that it is important not to set hard fast rules. And certainly not to make it law that everyone MUST tell a story or write in a particular way. The more strictures there are the more closed and silent are the lips.

On this site each person brings to the table their own ‘voice’ and we should all be grateful for that. For me reading should be relaxing, instructive and sometimes challenging but should not be neglected. Relaxing to feel comfortable and content in the jigsawing of the author’s words. Instructive to see how the author has used his or her skill and challenging when you read an author who has taken on and succeeded in pulling off memorable passages of verse or prose. This site currently accommodates the entire gamut of people’s expression for the world (or at least for the part of it they inhabit).

That said I’m not endorsing the Icarus style, god forbid. But right now our language is extremely powerful internationally and we should allow those who speak and write it to communicate as best they can – across generations as well as across oceans. Here at TS like Cent has said on many occasion the reader has the choice, whether to read or move on to something else more down their street. Or should that be soi?

Maybe I should try and send in my own cryptic vignette about myself and get Cent to do a synopsis, tell me what the hell I’m talking about :-) . Then again, better not, I’m better off not knowing. Hey, just another thought, could it be that Cent is in fact Icarus but just writing under yet another name? After all, the author is keeping a low profile on all this.
Hmm...It’s all beginning to make sense now. :-)

Dana
May 27, 2007, 06:50

Icarus
"the son of Daedalus who to escape imprisonment flies by means of artificial wings but falls into the sea and drowns when the wax of his wings melts as he flies too near the sun."

Sometimes the things in front of our faces mean something--sometimes not. I have been toying with the definition of the word Icarus and the writing style--blundering about trying to puzzle out some clues or conclusions. So far nothing.

In my case 'Dana' is a Buddhist idea--in five years of net exposure only one reader has called me on it. Or in five years of net exposure has there only been one reader? Who knows . . .

ray
May 28, 2007, 01:52


Chuckwow says...

"It's minimalism. Reminds me of Raymond Carver. Taken to it's logical extreme you end up back where you started...with a blank page. I hope Icarus keeps going because I want to see how he deals with that."

Will there be a blank page submission in the future? Why not? Will there be a long thread following the submission of the blank page. Probably...

Mr Dana says...
"Mr. Woww is correct but logical extremes do not always please."

I think that is what Mr Wow was getting at. A blank page is often less than pleasing for a writer or reader. I very much enjoy Icarus' submissions, but a little more awareness of audience wouldn't go a miss. It's one thing to leave the reader wanting more details, but you have to supply the reader with enough for them to want to understand more. I think this submission achieves this, but only just. That said, I am looking forward, very much to the next submission. This writer has a very clear idea of how one word should follow the other. And, has brightened up this site.

chuckwoww
May 28, 2007, 03:24

Perhaps the answer lies somewhere between diareohha and constipation? I'm using the scatalogical approach to literary criticism here. The ideal objective gentlemen is a nice firm turd.

ray
May 28, 2007, 07:01

A firm turd is good for the masses. Some like it loose some like it strained. I like to see it plop right into the bowl.

Union Hill
May 28, 2007, 17:06

Getting away from the toilet analogies for a moment, for what it's worth I would liken Icarus' writing to jazz music. For some it's a thing of beauty, crafted from raw emotion, for others it's an annoying noise with no descernable melody or rythm.

Personally, I like jazz.

ray
May 28, 2007, 21:23

Jazz hmmm, Ornette Coleman free style jazz maybe.

Santa
May 29, 2007, 02:34

A meaningless post of 16 lines, maybe fewer when you remove the advertisements. How did this get past the moderator? Nothing to do with Thailand.

ray
May 29, 2007, 19:22

It does include the sentance "From heat and brown people" which might have something to do with Thailand...

Geoff
May 31, 2007, 00:23

It's not minimalism, it's simply incomplete. Whether it's unambiguous enough for the reader to understand what the image is seems to be the crux of the debate here, but even if you are one of the readers for whom it is clear as a bell, at the end of the day, its still only an image. There is nothing to hint at why this image may be worth looking at, no conflict and resolution, no growth, no development, none of the items that distinguish something as literature.
Take this image and develop it into a story and we may have something. Like Dana said, all it needs is some more words...

Santa
May 31, 2007, 00:25

Yes, it might have. Could refer to a lot of other places too. I might add that there is no intended malice in either my previous comment, or this one.

ray
May 31, 2007, 07:24

Whilst I encourage writers to submit stories to this site that are challanging to the forum, I also like to see something that has a begining middle and end. I would not say that the submission is incomplete. It is simply an excersie in brilliant but perhaps "lazy" writing. So much more could have been done with the bare bones that have been posted. I also am not offering any malice, god help me. I look forward to the next submission.

chuckwoww
May 31, 2007, 07:29

'Simply incomplete' describes it very well. Perhaps now that Icarus has our attention we may get some character development, conflict....even...dare I hope....some resolution.

Ikkrang
June 3, 2007, 04:54

>I also like to see something that has a begining middle and end<

Didn't Dickens write in form of 'will be continued' e.g. leaving out the end?

i think the key to these stories may be that they will in the end start to fit together, like a jigsaw puzzle, and when it evolves, the picture may appear.
Let's be patient and see where he will lead us. So far, this may only have been 'setting the scene of the present, and the earliest past, what was in between remains a mystery that may or may not be revealed.

Dana
June 3, 2007, 08:31

Some ThailandStories groupie should do a study: I nominate this as the highest Comment-to-Content ratio in ThailandStories history. Hard to imagine less instigating more unless the subjects were gun control or abortion or politics or feminism.

ray
June 3, 2007, 20:14

As I understand it Dickens wrote in the form of "will be conitnued" as he was working for newspapers and being paid well for the monthly episodes of that which later became novels.
I agree we should be patient, but it would be nice to see more content in one submission. Has the authur got it all sitting there already in a widly overlooked magnus opus?Or is it being worked on as we / he type(s)? Gripping stuff.

Marc Holt
June 3, 2007, 23:53

Those of you who are asking for 'more words' are missing the point of Icarus' writing style. It's called a 'vignette', which is a minimalist approach to using as few words as possible to generate an vision in the reader's mind. Icarus has done this...although perhaps a few words more would have helped to flesh it out.

While I understand the device he is using, I too find it hard to follow his thoughts and view the picture.

Despite this, I think he makes a valuable contribution here. Different writing styles are what this site is all about.

[shameless plug time] I have just opened a new forum you might like to come to and discuss the articles here in more depth.
http://www.planetwriters.com/

I've also included a topic on the next incarnation of ThailandStories, PlanetWriters, that is shaping up nicely. Not open yet, but why not submit your stories that don't fit here?

Dana
June 4, 2007, 00:29

Attn: Ray

The late 19th century and early 20th century newspaper and particularly magazine serializations of stories by popular writers; examples--Dickens in England and Jack London in the States had the opposite effect on writing style to Icarus style presentation. More words rather than fewer words was the result because these authors were paid by the word. Hence run-on sentances, and repetition, and wordy 'Summaries' before every new chapter, and lots and lots of description; all anathama to the Icarus style (?) of writing. Not necessarily an example of a serialization writer; but a good example of anti-Icarus writing--if you can read Lord Jim by Joseph Conrad I will personally send you a medal.

ray
June 4, 2007, 01:35

Dana,

I read Heart of Darkness - Does that count?

Marc Holt
June 4, 2007, 13:14

I made a movie with Joergen Prochnow and Sam Waterston of a Conrad story. Never did figure out which story it was though. I think it was a tale of a bloke who went to Borneo and fell in love with a nightclub singer. The movie was called "The Devil's Paradise". Did anyone ever see this movie? Reading Conrad, a Pole, is always a chore. But once you get through the dross he writes some amusing stories. Put him in today's setting and he would probably be writing subs for Stickman.

chuckwoww
June 4, 2007, 13:31

It's funny how that long-winded Conradian style went out of fashion. Actually it's funny to think that it was ever popular. Surely people didn't talk like that in ordinary conversation. I have to assume that people had more time for reading in those days...or maybe they just liked their prose flowery.

ray
June 4, 2007, 17:55

We have to remember that this was before the days of TV... So yes, more time for reading. And folks perhaps required long descriptive passages and accepted wooden dialogue.

Geoff
June 5, 2007, 02:47

the long winded style went out of fashion? I can point to quite a few entries on the Mangosauce comment boards that seem to suggest just the opposite...

chuckwoww
June 5, 2007, 05:20

Indeed. Some of those guys at MS are pretty verbose. I guess they feel free to let off steam, which is good of course, but wading through words for words sake can get tedious.

Landmark Larry
June 5, 2007, 10:06

This is very silly

Dana
June 5, 2007, 11:28

Actually, I quite enjoyed Dicer on Mangosauce but I have not seen him in some time and Mangosauce also seems to be dead. End of an era?

Back to Dicer--I considered him so uniquely Thai knowledgeable and interesting the mystery was why I did not see him elsewhere on the net. For his spoor to only be scattered on Mangosauce seemed odd to me.