Trafficking?

By : -Korski
Views : 976

There’s a good deal of interest in human trafficking, and there’s no doubt that it occurs. The numbers thrown about sometimes boggle the mind, press the limits of credulity. Yes, how good are the numbers? Who is generating them and what are their agendas—and agendas there are, about this there can be no mistake. And exactly what is trafficking, and what are the various forms that it takes? As I sit here in a tiny guest house in faraway Laos, and with no possibility of doing Google searches on the issue—something more easily done at home and on my desktop computer in any event, I got to thinking about these questions, and in particular what little I think I do know about one aspect of what I am sure most would describe as trafficking; trafficking in young women for the purposes of prostitution.

***

A Vietnamese man who moves freely between Phnom Penh, Cambodia and the Mekong Delta approaches needy Vietnamese mothers in the Delta and more or less says: I will give you $500 today if you will allow your daughter to work as a prostitute in a brothel or girlie bar in Phnom Penh. Except for necessary living expenses, the girl will have to pay me $1,000 dollars to pay off the debt you have with me from the first money that she makes. After this money is repaid then what your daughter makes is her money, with nothing more owed to me.

Is this trafficking?

I don’t think so.

As I have presented the scenario—one I have heard about and believe it is about as I have rendered it (very hard to verify, to be sure)—the mother, and perhaps the daughter (the issue of the mother’s possible coercion is a complicating factor), are being presented with a way to get money that one or both may see as necessary to keep the household going, meet the most minimal expenses for food, clothing and shelter. Indeed, it may be the case, and often is, that the young woman has a child and no means of support from an absent father. In the scheme of opportunities or available choices, the young woman’s decision (albeit complicit with her mother) can be seen as a good one indeed. She may say that she did not have a choice, and use this very word; but the fact is that it was probably the only choice she really had, given her predicament and where she lives. Or by many measures, and money being the most important one, easily the best choice she could have made—the moral issue aside, an issue that takes on a particular and one might say bland hue when poor.

***

Then there is the situation in the Philippines, and again the issue of trafficking, one in this instance where there is a constant flow and turnover of young women moving into and out of prostitution in Angeles City, or rather a tiny piece of it: a small and compact whoring area with somewhere between 8,000 and 10,000 registered prostitutes, about half of them at any one time working is some 100 bars and go-go venues.

The flow of young women into Angeles City—overwhelming from Samar and Leyte in the Visayas—is fed by three means: recruiting mamasans; girls hearing about prostitution from other young women—friends, cousins, even sisters; and a push from parents, most likely the mother, to prostitute herself for those with money, namely foreigners (to include the South Koreans and Japanese, who Filipinos do not describe as foreigners). As far as I can tell from talking to scores of prostitutes in Angeles City, the last factor—the push from parents to become a prostitute, as opposed to simply telling the daughter she has to find a job of some sort for the child she now has—accounts for a tiny percentage of the stream of young women into Angles City. My crude guess is that it accounts for no more than two or three percent of the total.

In virtually all the go-go venues in Angeles, groups of young girls—ten, fifteen, even more—are controlled by a mamasan. It is the mamasan’s job to see that they come to work, that they behave as she wants them to behave and in accord with bar rules, in short to understand that she is their boss in all important respects. She is the one they look to for guidance, and from whom they receive discipline; the mamasan, then, is their mother away from home.

For her effort, the mamasan gets a commission on what the young women earn, particularly by way or barfines or what men pay to go with the young prostitutes. She may also get a cut on “ladies drinks” that the girls get when they sit with a customer, drinks that are more expensive than what the customer pays for a drink for himself.

When clubs need new or more girls they advertise, and often quite publicly on the front of the club, to the effect that they are seeking a mamasan with ten or more girls. How many mamasans there may be working in a club depends on how many girls the clubs wants (upwards of 100 in several of them, and up to 250 or more in a few) and how many girls the mamasan has in her stable (borrowing the latter term from the world of pimps in the U.S., who refer to prostitutes under their control as their stable).

Many of the mamasans recruit the girls in the mamasans’ home provinces, since they know locals and it is easy for them to get information on girls that are of age, and vulnerable or needy—the two—vulnerable and needy largely interchangeable: needy because the family is very poor and the girl is willing and sometimes even eager to help the family financially, needy because she is a single mother with no support whatsoever from the father of her child, overwhelming the case with single mothers in the Philippines.

The mamasan is even quite receptive to including virgins or “cherry girls,” in her stable, knowing that without much persuasion she can get them to go with customers: “bar-hopping” only; or bar-hopping and sleeping with them; or bar-hopping and sleeping with them and also giving them a blowjob. The mamasan knows that at some point—often a couple of months into the job-- the young woman will more or less come to accept what those around her are doing all the time and then decide to cash-in her cherry girl status and sell her virginity to a foreigner, a price that in 2012 can range between 50,000 and 100,000 pesos ($1,200 to $2,500).

I have heard of one unusual case where a girl living in Samar was contacted by a mamasan because an American was looking for a cherry girl and was willing to pay 100,000 pesos for the pleasure (more likely pain, most certainly from the girl’s point of view) of taking her virginity. The mamasan arranged for the eighteen year-old girl to come to Angeles, spend one night in a hotel to lose her virginity, and then return home. It was almost two years before the girl returned to Angeles to work as a bargirl, in the interim toiling seven days a week for less than 2,000 pesos a month as a domestic in Manila.

After the sale of one’s virginity, the young woman is no different than other bargirls she has been working with. She will now go with customers willing to pay a barfine, and to the extent she does so this becomes a continuing source of commissions to the mamasan. The mamasan, in effect, is a pimp, one pimp among many pimps. It is a long list that includes bar owners and waitresses and touts on the street, and all those others feeding off of or profiting from the young women. In this long feeding chain, the mamasan, one might say, is Top Pimp, the one who is most indispensable to the existence and maintenance of the long food chain.

Allegedly, when recruited, the girls are told by the mamasan that they will be working as dancers or waitresses, and in a technical sense this is true. They do dance, if shuffling one’s feet while standing on a stage often shoulder to shoulder with other girls can be called dancing. Some of the young women in fact do become waitresses, and only waitresses; but the great majority of them are just as willing to go with customers as those who expose most of their body while dancing. (Not without reason, there are mongers who prefer the waitresses, if only for the mystery of what is not revealed in wearing a uniform.)

Whatever the girls are told they will do upon recruitment, there is no doubt whatsoever that shortly after arrival in Angeles City they become fully away of how to make small money (their meagre salary—less than four dollars for eight or nine hours of dancing, and commissions on drinks—between a dollar and a two dollars, depending on the drink ) and greater amounts (hardly anything remotely like big money by western standards) by going with customers on barfines, either for a couple of hours or all night long (about twenty dollars for either effort, not taking into account any tip the customer may give the young woman upon leaving).

There is, to note, not the least ambiguity about what the girls are expected to do with customers who barfine them: minimally have intercourse, and if they are not willing to do so then the customer can, and often will, return the girl to the bar to get a refund on his barfine. Because the young women talk so much among themselves about what dancers and waitresses in Angeles City do, there are very few if any who do not know exactly what they will be doing to earn money before they ever reach Angeles. That the girls are somehow in the dark about what the job entails is a myth, the kind only entertained by those eager to claim that the young women have been duped about what they will be doing in Angeles.

There’s no doubt that what the mamasans do is considered trafficking by many, and now by the Philippine government, no doubt because of moralistic shouting by western nations with money, and of course missionizing NGO sorts. And this means that the mamasans have to be more careful than they have been in the past about how they recruit the young women, and how they get them to Angeles. Whereas once they could travel with a handful or more of them by bus and ferry from Samar and Leyte to Angeles, now they have to avoid this method or be much more careful and watchful for those looking for traffickers. On the other hand, it bears noting that were the government interested in prosecuting mamasans for trafficking, all it would have to do is round up scores of them in Angeles City and then get testimony from the girls that work for them. The evidence would be as solid and confirming as any evidence to be found in any good criminal case. That none of this happens is obvious testimony to corruption, and more specifically to the fact that while prostitution is illegal in the Philippines it operates as openly as one might imagine in Angeles and Manila, and in a regional center like Cebu.

As a bit of an aside, one that is cause for a chuckle if not laughter from whoremongers, many of the clubs in Angeles upon a customer giving the money for a barfine to a waitress is presented with a very cheap fifth of alcohol that no one would drink, or presented with a dozen or so tiny shot glasses of tea or juice. The purpose behind all this is to give the appearance that what the customer is really doing is paying for enough alcohol or drinks so that the girl can be released from her work shift until the following day. [She is not, of course, a prostitute but rather a GRO, or Guest Relations Officer!] Of course, some silly and blind and hypocritical bureaucrat from an enforcement agency in Manila or Angeles City might argue is that what the customer has paid for has nothing whatsoever to do with what everyone knows she will be doing shortly or before the night is over—having intercourse and perhaps doing more than that with the man who has just paid her, well, barfine—an unwritten agreement to shag her.

The other way in which young women get into prostitution in Angeles, again principally from Samar and Leyte but also from Mindanao and Manila and elsewhere in the Philippines, is through information they have picked up from friends, cousins, even siblings. Indeed, a great many of them will tell you that this is precisely how they got into whoring in Angeles; going to the city of Angels had nothing whatsoever to do with having talked to a recruiting mamasan. Once in Angeles, they then hook up with a mamasan, very often the same one that has the friend or cousin or sister in a stable, the one who informed the girl about the best way to make money to send home for the poor family, and specifically to support the child that her mother is caring for in her absence.

This source of girls to a mamasan is, of course, a rich and very welcome addition of new or fresh talent into a stable, valuable not only because it increases the size of the stable and therefore her own income stream but also because many men are on the constant hunt for young women who are new to the game. Clearly in this case one most certainly cannot talk of trafficking: the young women heard of a job—easy enough to get even if overweight and with a body that shows the unattractive effects of a pregnancy and birth--that pays more than they were getting as a domestic or as a virtual slave employee in Manila working eighty hours a week in an electronics factory. Or in a great many cases they were doing nothing at all in a distant province, because there were jobs for almost no one.

So the question arises then: are the mamasans—central and essential to the whole Angeles City bargirl scene—traffickers?

I do not think so, and I think the only people who will call them traffickers are those eager to make the trafficking numbers as large as possible (and feed their missionary efforts financially and personally) or who do not know how the system works; and in the latter case really don’t want to know how things work lest it reduce, and perhaps quite dramatically, the numbers they need to make a case for widespread trafficking of young Filipinas into homeland prostitution. Perhaps even more germane here is the issue of free choice. The young women are told by a mamasan of an opportunity to make money that they cannot otherwise make, and it is their choice whether or not to join her stable of similarly desperate young women. Too, and crucially, the young women are free to leave a mamasan’s dominating on-job clutch anytime they wish to do so, and indeed do leave the whoring life altogether for any number of reasons, including getting involved in a serious relationship or marrying a customer—the latter not uncommon in Angeles. In short, coercion is not involved in the mamasan-bargirl relationship. The young women have the choice of entering or not entering into the whoring game, and leaving it when they wish to do so.

A final issue is that of the money being made off of the young women by the mamasans, and so many others. But surely this is not an issue at all, any more than exploitation via shameful wages paid for domestic help or in a factory is an issue. The profits (whether computed hourly, daily or monthly) taken in such morally neutral employments—working as a domestic or in a factory--are fundamentally no different than the commissions that mamasans and the owners of bars and go-go venues take on what the girls do, or the girls bring about because of the customers who come to the bars and go-go venues and at a minimum buy drinks for themselves and perhaps for a young girl that they may or may not barfine. .

Trafficking, of course, does occur all over the world, and for reasons having nothing to do with prostitution. Without pursuing the argument further, it would seem that genuine trafficking, as opposed to what many would assert with great certainty is trafficking—young Filipinas brought from the provinces and Manila to work as prostitutes in Angeles City, the example I have elaborated upon--would at a minimum seem to involved coercion, deception, and critically the inability to freely leave whenever one desires to do so. These are conditions that, as far as I know, are absent from the widespread mamasan--bargirl relationship found in Angeles City, and also in Manila and elsewhere in the Philippines.

The author can be contacted at wanderingasia3@gmail.com


Like this story? Share it with others: Stumble It! Add to Yahoo! My Web Bookmark to Del.icio.us Bookmark to Furl Spurl This! Add to Reddit Bookmark to Newsvine


Rating

Teen



Comments / Feedback

John Daysh
July 9, 2012, 18:05

Korski starts a sentence with "Too". I noted another instance of this on Another Website - same author. I have never seen this before; "Also" but not "Too." Just curious.
Bangkok B
July 9, 2012, 22:48

Strange that your research neglects to mention the approx fifty percent of the girls who have Filipino husbands/boyfriends who under the terms of the PI legislation are also guilty of trafficking. Strange also that you do not mention the migration of girls who have worked in brothels for the locals to bars for foreigners, mamasans buying groups of girls as they become too old for the locals, also trafficking... actually, your definition of trafficking isn't important it is how the locals decide to apply their own laws that is important. That they do not apply them properly down to local corruption. In fact, the laws are so far ranging that if they wanted to they could knock on the door of your hotel room whilst you are mounted on your latest Filipina and arrest you for trafficking as it is your money that is funding the whole business. Obviously if they did that it would close the whole sex industry down and a third world hole like the PI would lose too much easy money but the laws are there and get the right nutter in control it will happen.

Maybe twenty years ago you had the gentleman monger and girls who really did have no option but to sell their bodies but the current scene in Angeles is much more tourists as pigs at the trough doing hardcore babes pretending to be lost souls in the hope they can get a tip in the morning that is worth more than the taxi ride home to placate their local boyfriends/pimp for the serious loss of face at having to endure sloppy seconds.

Soi 'Hair of the Dog'
July 10, 2012, 04:10

I believe every woman should have the right to work as a prostitute, should she choose to do so of her own free will. I also think that women should be protected from those seeking to coerce them into the industry for their own advantage. Many young Asian women are brought up to accept they have an obligation to provide for their extended families. Where they originate from an area with poor employment prospects for unskilled and under educated young people, then it is unsurprising that many are drawn to the industry. Are these women becoming prostitutes of their own free will, or do the expectations of their families mean that in reality they have no choice?

Perhaps not people trafficking by most people’s understanding of the term. I tend to think of it like forced marriage, an undesirable but socially accepted practice undertaken for the benefit of the family unit but to the detriment of the individual.
Dana
July 10, 2012, 21:59

Anther subject where the facts are obscured by the need of magazines and newspapers to publish exciting tripe they can not fact check.

In the West are headhunters traffickers? How about recruiters and commission based Human Resource Dept. specialists. Etc.

I grieve for every innocent girl/woman who has been abused by the lie of a brighter future. But accurate fact checking will benefit everyone.
Mark Twain
July 12, 2012, 20:18

The current best information on the subject is from the Empower group. They are trafficked and abused women who tell their story.

www.chezstella.org/stella/Hit-and-Run-RATSW.pdf

The information is only a few months old.

It you want to be well informed on the issue it is a must read.

If you don't want to be well informed keep reading nonsense like the stuff that is written by self appointed experts who spend a few weeks a months in Asia.


Aitmail
July 14, 2012, 10:40

Thanks for the link MT,very informative. You're right.
korski
July 14, 2012, 10:54

Korski starts a sentence with "Too". I noted another instance of this on Another Website - same author. I have never seen this before; "Also" but not "Too." Just curious.

This is not a common way to begin a sentence, but it is certainly acceptable, and you will find plenty of examples in written American English.
korski
July 14, 2012, 10:59

Strange that your research neglects to mention the approx fifty percent of the girls who have Filipino husbands/boyfriends who under the terms of the PI legislation are also guilty of trafficking.

Well they are not in fact traffickers, I don't care what the Filipino govt says. Far as I know, virtually all boyfriends of Filipino hookers in Angeles have had little or nothing to do with getting the girls into the whoring game. They may well be pimps, or seen as pimps but even this is a stretch. And where does this figure of fifty percent come from, incidentally?
korski
July 14, 2012, 11:04

Strange also that you do not mention the migration of girls who have worked in brothels for the locals to bars for foreigners, mamasans buying groups of girls as they become too old for the locals, also trafficking... actually, your definition of trafficking isn't important it is how the locals decide to apply their own laws that is important.

I don't know anything about mamasans buying girls for locals using brothels; and I doubt you do either. if so, give me your sources. I would particularly like to know about the "buying" aspect. I hear nothing of this for the venues in Angeles, in fact do not think it exists. Don't be so quick to accuse without getting data yourself, or asking me what I have done or could do.
korski
July 14, 2012, 11:09

actually, your definition of trafficking isn't important it is how the locals decide to apply their own laws that is important.

No, you are flat out wrong about this. The reason for my exercise is to bring some modicum of facts and sense to the kind of issues that do-gooders and NGO types love to pounce on. They have a vested interested in labeling as much as they can as trafficking, for their funding. Work hard enough to set the missionaries straight and some of this will filter down to the government and bring a modicum of common sense to what is going on.
korski
July 14, 2012, 11:26

Maybe twenty years ago you had the gentleman monger and girls who really did have no option but to sell their bodies but the current scene in Angeles is much more tourists as pigs at the trough doing hardcore babes pretending to be lost souls in the hope they can get a tip in the morning that is worth more than the taxi ride home to placate their local boyfriends/pimp for the serious loss of face at having to endure sloppy seconds.

I'm afraid you don't know diddle about what's going down in Angeles. Yes, there are plenty of foreign pigs about, esp those going bareback. The girls are not pretending to be lost souls; this is just your imagination gone haywire. Ask them, dozens of them, and it's the same story: money to send home to support the family in Samar or Leyte or Mindanao, and for the kid that has to be supported because the young Filipino who got her pregnant disappeared and never gave her a peso. You're placing the blame in the wrong place: it's the young Filipino who drives the system for a great many of the girls, not the pimp-boyfriend but the one back in the province who got her pregnant. And not the pig monger either.

You're just throwing out your ill-informed prejudices. Far as I can tell, there are far fewer boyfriends/pimps than mongers assert; and money is going to the provinces and Manila for family and kids; and more than a few of the girls in Angeles are without bfs and are lesbians. Don'r know where you're really coming from, but you're pretty ill-informed. Back off and get facts before you shoot your gun.
korski
July 14, 2012, 11:31

Are these women becoming prostitutes of their own free will, or do the expectations of their families mean that in reality they have no choice?

Most have a kid or two to support, there are no employment opportunities where most come from, and they are making the best choice among the alternatives. Is there pressure to send money to the family? Of course, but it's true of the millions of Filipinas who have never been near a hooker bar.
korski
July 14, 2012, 11:33

In the West are headhunters traffickers? How about recruiters and commission based Human Resource Dept. specialists. Etc.

Exactly. Point I think I made about mamasans. Trafficking? Only by do-gooder big nose standards, who JUST know what is right for others.
korski
July 14, 2012, 11:35

If you don't want to be well informed keep reading nonsense like the stuff that is written by self appointed experts who spend a few weeks a months in Asia.

Any day you want to compare my credentials with your own on this subject or others I write on I'd be happy to do so. My suspicion from other things you've written is that you're not good enough to hold my pencil.
mark twain
July 19, 2012, 10:58

That was a rather harsh response about me and your pencil. I gave you a good reference with more and better information (124 pages of information) than was contained in your little article and it was written by women who have been trafficked.

Your bloated writing ego is nothing new among expat wannabes and is evidenced by the “my girlfriend is better than your girlfriend” or in your case “I know more about hookers than you know about hookers” thing.

It would behoove you to read the article I referenced as you might learn something instead of acting like you already know something. I think perhaps your confusion may stem from the fact you think the readers of Thailandstories are undergraduate students in some Midwestern teachers college who are paying you tuition and forced to pretend you are an expert.

However I am waiting on tenterhooks for your masterpiece about dumb Thai girls and even dumber Philippine women. It's a doozy!
Bangkok B
July 21, 2012, 00:06

Korski, sorry but the girls never tell the truth and I don't care how nice you are to them or how many colas you buy them or how many years you have put in sussing out American students - none of the nuances you have learnt in the West are of any help. You keep getting the same story over and over again because it is what the girls are taught to say. How many customers do you think they would get if they owned up to spending the last five years bare-backing Filipinos in a local brothel and now had a boyfriend/pimp to support?

The fifty percent boyfriend is from my own immersion in the Angeles scene and it is a fast expanding percentage (three years ago it might have been thirty percent, ten years ago ten percent). Fair enough some of the boyfriends let the girls work for the salary and drinks commission on the understanding they do not f..k the punters - which actually makes it more dangerous because if the girl lies to them and you are the farang who has just f..ked her, expect violence.

I have seen mamasans in the bar slap girls very hard when they have not shaped up and others treat cherry girls as their own entry into quick money. Bars openly compete to get mamasans because they come with their own troupe of girls and the mamasan manages to brainwash a lot of the newbie girls in to a way of thinking with regards to the customers that is extremely negative but I would say that for the most part the current general awfulness of the customers is well matched to the sad mental state of the girls.

BUT none of the above is very important nor your own treatise because the laws in the PI define trafficking in such a way that it includes the mamasans, the pimp boyfriends and even the punters (though the latter has never been used as far as I know as it would utterly destroy the business). Whether these laws were dreamt up by the locals or the NGOs I have no idea. It does not matter that this is entirely wrong-headed in your opinion you have no chance of such laws being rescinded. In fact, they have not been extended to refusing to let Filipina ladies leave the country, sometimes even when in the company of a farang boyfriend, immigration officials quoting anti-trafficking laws as their justification.

BTW I was actually in a Fields bar when it was raided by Manila cops and the customers were NOT allowed to leave and some were taken to Manila overnight but later released without charge even though their only sin was drinking a beer in a go-go bar. We will all scream about the absurdity of such a situation but it will get you nowhere to do so.
korski
July 21, 2012, 19:59

I think perhaps your confusion may stem from the fact you think the readers of Thailandstories are undergraduate students in some Midwestern teachers college who are paying you tuition and forced to pretend you are an expert.
----------------------------

I'm positive from the comments you post on this site that you're not good enough to be an undergrad student at a Midwestern teacher's college. I'm convinced you're not good enough to hold a pencil I've thrown in the garbage.
Dana
July 23, 2012, 21:11

" . . . you're not good enough to hold a pencil I've thrown in the garbage."

This has been done before. It was called Mangosauce.com.
Airmail
July 25, 2012, 04:28

With regard to pencils ,etc.. once again the discussion has degenerated into a slinging match dominated by egos.
IMO some stories are written with a hidden agenda. Stir up a hornets nest and let the barbs fly...One wonders whether an author should be responded to when the motivation to write was suspect. You just have to see the above where the Author posts repeatedly as if he wrote to be able to refute and harangue. Is this what here's all about?
Korski
August 2, 2012, 08:46

One wonders whether an author should be responded to when the motivation to write was suspect.
===================

WHAT is this supposed to mean? There's nothing suspect about my motivation. I simply love writing, it is an addiction. I write what I know, what I learn about, what I see as the issues. Period. Where are you coming from to question my motives, when you don't have a clue who I am? I don't post to harangue, but in your case you say things that indicate you barely have a high school education. Write about what you don't know anything about and you will be taken to task by someone like me. As I did to you on another site recently.
mark twain
August 2, 2012, 16:48

I know a lot about hookers but almost nothing about trafficking. I live in Thailand with hookers. I know hundreds of them from all over the place and none of them have been trafficked.

I have had the feeling for a long time that the NGOs are the bad guys in the traffic business followed by governments.

I have talked to some people in governments and who worked for NGOs and they come across as slime balls. So I read the 124 page study done by the Empower group. The study, “Hit and run” was written by women who live in South East Asia a lot of whom had been trafficked. The study is well written and not drivel that is the result of sloppy thinking.

Of course, to be honest, most people who read articles about trafficking don't want to know anything about trafficking.
Dana
August 3, 2012, 20:22

One wonders whether an author should be responded to when the motivation to write was suspect.
===================

I agree with Mr. Korski. A writer's motive for writing something is completely not on the table. Not relevant and a waste of time to consider. After the writer dies only the words will remain. But that is ok because only the words count.
Korski
August 4, 2012, 20:25

I know a lot about hookers but almost nothing about trafficking. I live in Thailand with hookers. I know hundreds of them from all over the place and none of them have been trafficked.

I have had the feeling for a long time that the NGOs are the bad guys in the traffic business followed by governments.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Pretty much my sentiments.
Airmail
August 5, 2012, 06:48

I made that comment in the context of this website,Dana.Yes, I absolutely agree with you ,only the words count. The Author will be judged by them.
Airmail
August 5, 2012, 15:26

"none of them have been trafficked."
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/305043/mamasan-arrested-for-child-prostitution-and-human-trafficking

A token gesture for PR only... nevertheless it's the tip of the iceberg.
Mongers have a tendency to blame NGOs. Sure the Government is to blame to turn a blind eye. The link about the Pattaya arrest makes a laughing stock out of the authorities.
mark twain
August 6, 2012, 11:58

Airmail, how do you know it is the tip of the iceberg? I talk to hookers every day. I see hookers every day. I don't see any underage women. I don't know any women who have been trafficked. I do read stories about NGO's trying to make money who dummy photographs and make up stories. http://andrew-drummond.com/2012/01/07/akha-and-the-grey-man-we-find-the-rescued-children/

http://andrew-drummond.com/2012/03/26/grey-man-president-resigns-after-flying-sporran-investigation/

So Airmail tell me where do you see all the under age trafficked ladies? I realize Australia has a problem with it. Some 83% of trafficking victims identified in Australia are women working in the sex industry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Australia

If Thailand has a problem with trafficking it is with Burmese fisherman.
Airmail
August 9, 2012, 15:41

A lot of those women you mentioned MT are trafficked from Thailand to Australia. So are you telling me that they weren't trafficked before they were transhipped? Is that what your hooker friends are telling you? Possibly they were trafficked while under age within Thailand then on becoming of age and able to obtain a passport they're trafficked on.
What are we supposed to do when reading research from credible sources and I'm not talking about gossip. Am I to rely on you for credible evidence , a person who lives with hookers? Come on now, if you chose that kind of lifestyle don't expect people to take you seriously. Your posts are funny and witty but not authorative. You don't see any underage hookers in Thailand, maybe you're in denial. The police in the newspaper article I put up found 4 out of 16. Was that an anomaly?

Dana
August 10, 2012, 10:17

Underage hookers in Thailand? Who can tell and who can you believe? I know, you are supposed to check their Buddhist calendar I.D. Card. Good luck. I routinely spend time with older hookers. Fa is in her forties. At least she is not fourteen.
mark twain
August 10, 2012, 21:26

I think the article you posted was about a go go on Soi LK metro. That is an area I know a lot about so I asked. To the best of my knowledge there were two young women underage there. One 15 and one 17. They were both Thai and one had two children the other was working part time and at a trade school the rest of the time.

If a young woman who is going to trade school gets a part time job at a bar has she been trafficked?

My hooker friends tell me that everyone is working in Pattaya or any other place that has bars that cater to Farangs of their own free will and no one has forced them or coerced them or their family in any way to prostitute themselves.

But by definition because they are not over the age of 18; they have been trafficked.

I don't know if any of the above information is factual. I can not verify any of it from my own experience.

How many underage women work in Pattaya and what percent of the workforce do they represent? I don't know. Informed sources suggest the most common age for under age workers is 17. Do most of them have children? I don't know.

I think that using the terms underage and trafficking interchangeably makes this discussion difficult.

I would never defend underage women working in a bar. At the same time if a single mother with two children wants to work in a bar who am I to say no?
Korski
August 11, 2012, 00:13

What are we supposed to do when reading research from credible sources and I'm not talking about gossip.

Look carefully at so-called credible sources, especially those that have NGO tags on them; NGO have agendas, and big agendas, and a big interest in claiming there is a lot of trafficking. The larger the claim the more money to feed their money needs--big lunches, driving Lexuses, etc. This ought to be obvious to anyone familiar with SEA.
Hump
August 12, 2012, 03:54

So are you telling me that they weren't trafficked before
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us say some percentage of Thai women were trafficked at the beginning and that's what got them into the scene. But now they are free, or in other words in a position to choose for themselves. Now, I think (or want to think) everyone here would not take advantage of women currently being trafficked. But what about later if they are free but choose to remain there. Should men withhold their business with them in favour of another prostitute who wasn't trafficked just because at some point they were trafficked? Would not that further stigmatize and punish them through discrimination?

And I'm not buying this "trafficked to Australia" hype. If they are currently working in the scene and someone offers them a job paying a lot of money in a foreign country what do they think, they've suddenly become qualified accountants? No. They know what it's about. To me it's more about employer practices and employee rights. They should not be taken advantage of because they are prostitutes. But as long as the righteous keep prostitution illegal then these women will be exploited and will have no rights or legal recourse.

And what constitutes being trafficked? Certainly a child stolen from her parents and put into slavery of some type. But what about someone enticed with the latest phone or purse? Or someone under age, but otherwise knows what they're getting into? I'm not being cruel here, but with only so many resources available to go after traffickers, wouldn't it be best to go after the worst? And when that's done then maybe expand the definition.

And who is authoritive? I'm so tired of these faux professor researchers who use their mostly imagined position to engage in their personal peccadillo's as if they're somehow more entitled to engage in such activities than are others. Or worse, who do so and then deny it. Enough already.

I think the workers themselves are authoritive but they only share what benefits them which is rarely 100% or enough to support an informed position. They're sharing what they think will get them the most. And if they do that then you know they're not above making up any story for gain.

I think those men, maybe like MT, who have been here forever and can sniff out the fakes and liars and who sometimes develop relationships with them and can hear "talk" and the such.. I'd think this is the most accurate information we'll get.

It is a hard subject (no pun intended). No one here wants to hurt these girls. (and let us not forget boys/men are abused by even worse creeps) But most here believe prostitution is not wrong and that denying the girls business could in fact hurt them worse than anything as many have no other skills or opportunities. A conundrum no?

Yet at the same time many here (I think) see what they want to see because seeing otherwise would mean they couldn't do what they're currently doing, or at the least they might have to feel bad about it. Denial.

It is like the great condom/HIV debate. A 40-50 year old man with much of his life ahead of him will see the wisdom of protecting himself (and by doing this protecting others) even against long odds of transmission. But a 70+ year old man whose body has deteriorated so much that they can't really feel much through a condom will find whatever he can to support his theory that the odds make it nearly impossible to be infected. Make that any man above 40 who smokes and drinks too much and isn't otherwise ensuring their circulatory system is functioning optimally. If they need skin/skin to enjoy sex, then they'll interpret the statistics in their favour. And argue their point online to further convince themselves. The more "loud" they are, the more I think this is true.

Maybe the answers are beyond our reach. The topics make good fodder for discussion, but I see very little we can take as gospel.
Dana
August 18, 2012, 00:07

This type of Korskian content/approach was magnificently done in an essay titled Cambodia: The Great Foreign Pedaphile Myth. One of his best efforts at travel/observation/educated thinking. I used to respectfully submit that measured thinking and mature responses to emotional social issues might be helpful but I got pilloried for it. Just murdered. Apparently, all men are more moral and have more value than myself. Lesson learned. Sometimes society assigns more value to the messenger than to the message. If Korski has more value as a messenger on some of these subjects I am all for it. The illuminations of the issues from the lamp of truth are important. Korski has done the miles and he has a brain. We have much to fear from the fascist thinkers successfully selling lies.
Korski
August 23, 2012, 05:37

The topics make good fodder for discussion, but I see very little we can take as gospel.

-----------------------------

So why don't you write clear and clean sentences and say something of substance instead of standing high on your holy altar and throwing vague accusations at one and all? You're not a critic worthy of the name; you're just a mindless complainer who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. And what by the way have you written about anything, to say nothing about whether it had any substance in it?
Hump
August 24, 2012, 15:44

So why don't you write clear and clean sentences and say something of substance instead of standing high on your holy altar and throwing vague accusations at one and all? You're not a critic worthy of the name; you're just a mindless complainer who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. And what by the way have you written about anything, to say nothing about whether it had any substance in it?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And next you will tell me I'm not good enough to hold your pencil. The "attack" and the "insult" are your fall back weapons when you have nothing else. You revert to them instead of listening and becoming a better writer. If I've picked that up in the short time I've been observing you then so has everyone else here. I'm sorry, but I won't wallow with you.

Mr. Korski. I would not bother if I didn't find value in some of your work. Please try and understand this.
Korski
August 26, 2012, 15:17

And next you will tell me I'm not good enough to hold your pencil.

--------------------------------

Let me see a couple of analytical pieces by you, and some stories. Then I let you know, and soon enough. I suspect you're all empty and vague accusation. Prove me wrong.
Hump
October 10, 2012, 19:48

Let me see a couple of analytical pieces by you, and some stories. Then I let you know, and soon enough. I suspect you're all empty and vague accusation. Prove me wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you personally motivated by such callow challenges? I am not.

There is no sound logic to support your contention that one must be a writer and prove themselves under fire to write valid critiques. The only skill logically necessary to critique a writer is the skill of critical reading. A skill I might add many writers lack and would clearly benefit from. Otherwise they don't understand the critiques and tend to argue them instead.
RSS 2.0: Syndicate this article

Add Comment
* Name


Site



*Image Validation (?)


*Comments / Feedback





Print Article Print Article
Send to a friend Send to a friend
Save as PDF Save as PDF
Rate this Article :

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10
Poor Excellent